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	<title>Comments on: Sample size and size of effect</title>
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	<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/</link>
	<description>User Standards and Innovative Technology @ News Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Baty</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Baty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-103</guid>
		<description>Just to close the loop somewhat, the article I wrote can be viewed here: http://www.uxmatters.com/MT/archives/000352.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to close the loop somewhat, the article I wrote can be viewed here: <a href="http://www.uxmatters.com/MT/archives/000352.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.uxmatters.com/MT/archives/000352.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Kennedy</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Kennedy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-86</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the follow-up Mariana, I think we&#039;ve all learnt something through this string of comments :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the follow-up Mariana, I think we&#8217;ve all learnt something through this string of comments :)</p>
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		<title>By: Mariana da Silva</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>Mariana da Silva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-85</guid>
		<description>Patrick,

Thanks for your interest in my article. Apologies if it was confusing. I can see why it was. All I was trying to do was to explain what effect size is by giving an example. It&#039;s always difficult to avoid sounding too geeky and losing people&#039;s attention when you talk about statistics and you use terms like &quot;effect size&quot;! So I decided to explain it by coming up with the New York / London example. What I was trying to say is that when you can predict big effect sizes (before you test) you can reduce the number of people you will test (the &quot;handful&quot; term was used colloquially, rather than formally). Usually, sample sizes need to be decided before the test, survey, etc. is run, and one of the things that should be taken into account is the size of the effect you expect to measure. If you predict that the behaviour you will be measuring will only have tenuous variations between people you will need to boost those numbers to be confident that your results will have solid statistical basis. You can, of course, run a power analysis post hoc to determine whether your sample was big enough to give you high confidence levels in your results. But by then it is too late. 
I hope this clarifies things (although Steve made my job very easy by explaining this very clearly).

Great blog and comments in general. :-)
Looking forward to reading the UXmatters article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick,</p>
<p>Thanks for your interest in my article. Apologies if it was confusing. I can see why it was. All I was trying to do was to explain what effect size is by giving an example. It&#8217;s always difficult to avoid sounding too geeky and losing people&#8217;s attention when you talk about statistics and you use terms like &#8220;effect size&#8221;! So I decided to explain it by coming up with the New York / London example. What I was trying to say is that when you can predict big effect sizes (before you test) you can reduce the number of people you will test (the &#8220;handful&#8221; term was used colloquially, rather than formally). Usually, sample sizes need to be decided before the test, survey, etc. is run, and one of the things that should be taken into account is the size of the effect you expect to measure. If you predict that the behaviour you will be measuring will only have tenuous variations between people you will need to boost those numbers to be confident that your results will have solid statistical basis. You can, of course, run a power analysis post hoc to determine whether your sample was big enough to give you high confidence levels in your results. But by then it is too late.<br />
I hope this clarifies things (although Steve made my job very easy by explaining this very clearly).</p>
<p>Great blog and comments in general. :-)<br />
Looking forward to reading the UXmatters article.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Kennedy</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Kennedy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-84</guid>
		<description>So we sparked off the idea for the UXmatters article? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So we sparked off the idea for the UXmatters article? :)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Baty</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Baty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-83</guid>
		<description>Patrick,

If the question you&#039;re trying to answer is &quot;Is design A better (in real terms) than design B?&quot; then no, it doesn&#039;t really depend on the certainty. If the observed difference between the two designs is relatively large (the relative measurement is important), then the underlying theory says you can be fairly sure. 

Do we ever need to write a test report that reads &quot;we can be certain with a 95% degree of confidence that...&quot;? Rarely, if ever. However, the key point I&#039;m trying to make is that - with large observed differences - the point at which you reach that 95% level of confidence is much fewer observations than with small relative differences.

BTW: you&#039;re not alone in the lack of intuition with this. One of the smartest mathematicians I ever met completely failed to understand this topic on anything other than a &quot;I don&#039;t get it, but I&#039;ll take your word for it&quot; basis.

PS: I&#039;m in the process of writing this topic up into a column for uxmatters, which I hope will provide extra clarity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick,</p>
<p>If the question you&#8217;re trying to answer is &#8220;Is design A better (in real terms) than design B?&#8221; then no, it doesn&#8217;t really depend on the certainty. If the observed difference between the two designs is relatively large (the relative measurement is important), then the underlying theory says you can be fairly sure. </p>
<p>Do we ever need to write a test report that reads &#8220;we can be certain with a 95% degree of confidence that&#8230;&#8221;? Rarely, if ever. However, the key point I&#8217;m trying to make is that &#8211; with large observed differences &#8211; the point at which you reach that 95% level of confidence is much fewer observations than with small relative differences.</p>
<p>BTW: you&#8217;re not alone in the lack of intuition with this. One of the smartest mathematicians I ever met completely failed to understand this topic on anything other than a &#8220;I don&#8217;t get it, but I&#8217;ll take your word for it&#8221; basis.</p>
<p>PS: I&#8217;m in the process of writing this topic up into a column for uxmatters, which I hope will provide extra clarity.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-75</guid>
		<description>Would depend on the certainty you&#039;re after right? 

When I had to do this stuff as part of signal processing my intuition was (and apparently still is) wrong on pretty much all of it. That&#039;s why I said it was dangerous to talk about it without actually working out the numbers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would depend on the certainty you&#8217;re after right? </p>
<p>When I had to do this stuff as part of signal processing my intuition was (and apparently still is) wrong on pretty much all of it. That&#8217;s why I said it was dangerous to talk about it without actually working out the numbers&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Kennedy</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Kennedy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-74</guid>
		<description>Which is quite counter-intuitive isn&#039;t it? I would naturally think that after 15 minutes, any difference seen might be pure chance, and I&#039;d keep measuring to ensure a &quot;good sample size&quot;. But what you&#039;re saying is this would be a waste of time if the difference was large. Mind blowing!

This explains why I felt &quot;like a deer caught in the headlights&quot; during my stats course at uni :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is quite counter-intuitive isn&#8217;t it? I would naturally think that after 15 minutes, any difference seen might be pure chance, and I&#8217;d keep measuring to ensure a &#8220;good sample size&#8221;. But what you&#8217;re saying is this would be a waste of time if the difference was large. Mind blowing!</p>
<p>This explains why I felt &#8220;like a deer caught in the headlights&#8221; during my stats course at uni :)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Baty</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Baty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-73</guid>
		<description>Actually, to put this example in terms of something you *might* be undertaking, let&#039;s say you were looking at two page designs and trying to determine whether one gives a better click-through on some prime (revenue-generating) content item.

You run that comparison as an A/B test for 15 minutes and check the result. If it&#039;s a big difference, you could stop right there. If it&#039;s a small difference, keep running it and check again at the hour mark. At that point, you probably have a decent sized sample and can crunch some numbers; run a chi-squared test and see what you see. What you&#039;re trying to do at this stage is determined the likelihood that your small observed difference is *real* or random.

Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, to put this example in terms of something you *might* be undertaking, let&#8217;s say you were looking at two page designs and trying to determine whether one gives a better click-through on some prime (revenue-generating) content item.</p>
<p>You run that comparison as an A/B test for 15 minutes and check the result. If it&#8217;s a big difference, you could stop right there. If it&#8217;s a small difference, keep running it and check again at the hour mark. At that point, you probably have a decent sized sample and can crunch some numbers; run a chi-squared test and see what you see. What you&#8217;re trying to do at this stage is determined the likelihood that your small observed difference is *real* or random.</p>
<p>Steve</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Kennedy</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Kennedy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 04:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-69</guid>
		<description>At the end of the day, we wouldn&#039;t be trying to answer the question &quot;whether people in London are taller than people in New York&quot; so this discussion is rather academic.

For the sort of research we do, our methods and sample sizes are appropriate, taking into account Stephen&#039;s comments.

I, for one, am much clearer on the matter now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the end of the day, we wouldn&#8217;t be trying to answer the question &#8220;whether people in London are taller than people in New York&#8221; so this discussion is rather academic.</p>
<p>For the sort of research we do, our methods and sample sizes are appropriate, taking into account Stephen&#8217;s comments.</p>
<p>I, for one, am much clearer on the matter now.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.usit.com.au/2008/10/31/sample-size-and-size-of-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 04:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.usit.com.au/?p=266#comment-68</guid>
		<description>If the confidence intervals are actually calculated then great...

Sorry, my reading of the original example takes a handful to be something like four or five and height differences to be much smaller even for a large difference.

I think it&#039;s dangerous to talk about these things in vague terms numerically whilst giving a salient example of New York and London.

So yeah, my &quot;gripe&quot; is with the example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the confidence intervals are actually calculated then great&#8230;</p>
<p>Sorry, my reading of the original example takes a handful to be something like four or five and height differences to be much smaller even for a large difference.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s dangerous to talk about these things in vague terms numerically whilst giving a salient example of New York and London.</p>
<p>So yeah, my &#8220;gripe&#8221; is with the example.</p>
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